Jibber Jabber - Q1 - 29

Open topics on the Contest itself, to include results-watch threads and other items of note.
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Re: Jibber Jabber - Q1 - 29

Postby Martin L. Shoemaker » Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:33 am

Kary James wrote:Would anyone like to comment on the usual time elapsed from the start of the flood until we get to the HMs, semis and finalists?


Sure! I have a really great comment...

WRITE! WRITE! WRITE! WRITE! WRITE!

Oh, yeah... WRITE!
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Re: Jibber Jabber - Q1 - 29

Postby steffenwolf » Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:34 am

Kary James wrote:Would anyone like to comment on the usual time elapsed from the start of the flood until we get to the HMs, semis and finalists?


It's extremely variable, and has changed from year to year. This year in particular, they've said that rather than wait until the end and do it all in big batches, KD is sending individual results to Joni to distribute as it goes.
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Re: Jibber Jabber - Q1 - 29

Postby Strycher » Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:36 am

Patrick S. McGinnity wrote:I just noticed (way behind the curve, as usual) that Duotrope also tells how many users have WOTF entries with pending responses. If we use the ballpark figure of 1000 entries a quarter I've seen thrown about, that means about 10% are on Duotrope, while 5% are on the forum, according to George's rough estimate. I wonder how many of the forum 5% are also in Duotrope? Just interesting, that's all.


Consider, also, that Duotrope does not distinguish between quarters. Some of the entries are Person A's Q1 submission and because Person A is one of those [Yosemite Sam grumble] early submitters a second entry is Person A's Q2. And then Person B is lazy and hasn't reported on Q4 of last year yet even though they did submit a Q1. So some doubling going on there.

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Re: Jibber Jabber - Q1 - 29

Postby Grayson Morris » Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:36 am

Kary James wrote:Would anyone like to comment on the usual time elapsed from the start of the flood until we get to the HMs, semis and finalists?

Usually, HMs seem to come out with rejections. Only higher categories are held up until close to the end.
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Re: Jibber Jabber - Q1 - 29

Postby steffenwolf » Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:41 am

Grayson Morris wrote:
Kary James wrote:Would anyone like to comment on the usual time elapsed from the start of the flood until we get to the HMs, semis and finalists?

Usually, HMs seem to come out with rejections. Only higher categories are held up until close to the end.


Except when they're not. I've gotten HM and rejections after finalists were announced quite a few times. There is little rhyme or reason to the ordering, and you'll drive yourself mad trying to discern it.
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Re: Jibber Jabber - Q1 - 29

Postby george nik. » Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:44 am

Patrick S. McGinnity wrote:I just noticed (way behind the curve, as usual) that Duotrope also tells how many users have WOTF entries with pending responses. If we use the ballpark figure of 1000 entries a quarter I've seen thrown about, that means about 10% are on Duotrope, while 5% are on the forum, according to George's rough estimate. I wonder how many of the forum 5% are also in Duotrope? Just interesting, that's all.

A particular problem with Duotrope's pending responses regarding WOTF, is that it doesn't differentiate between quarters, so we don't really know how many of the 123 pending responses are about Q1 [ EDIT. I see Strycher has already mentioned this. Five more responses while I was writing. We are definitely on a roll here ] .We would know if we had noted the number of pending responses on January 1st (I didn't even know that there was such a thing as Duotrope, back then) and subtract the number of responses about this quarter (13 so far). I'd guess that the WOTF Q1 reported submissions are about 85, so this means that either the 1000 entries axiom or the 10% axiom is wrong.
Or I am wrong.
Or probably the 1000 entries rule, the 10% rule and me, are all of us wrong.
Oh, bother. This could go on forever. We lack concrete data. Whatever... wotf017
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Re: Jibber Jabber - Q1 - 29

Postby morshana » Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:48 am

Kary James wrote:Awesome on the results subforum! Thanks, Brad, and thanks to steffen for playing the role of the gadfly.

I, too, like this thread for its social approach. Q1V29 Socializing / Kaffeeklatsch / Lounge, whatever. See, results are cool, but so are friends, and these threads are where I've come to see the folks here as my friends. wotf006


I second this!
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Re: Jibber Jabber - Q1 - 29

Postby Dustin Adams » Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:55 am

Can the results thread be limited to the smilie posterboards only?

J/K
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Re: Jibber Jabber - Q1 - 29

Postby Rebecca Birch » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:01 am

Dustin Adams wrote:Can the results thread be limited to the smilie posterboards only?

J/K


Hee!

You all rock. I love this forum and the camaraderie, encouragement, and sense of welcome here. I'd been refreshing my Duotrope feed like a maniac over my Beneath Ceaseless Skies submission, but now I have to think about WotF when I do it, too, and I'm going to turn into a stress-ball, and ACK! I need to write more things and get them submitted because nervous me = bad.

(Was that run-on sentence enough?)

wotf039
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Re: Jibber Jabber - Q1 - 29

Postby Martin L. Shoemaker » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:02 am

steffenwolf wrote:There is little rhyme or reason to the ordering, and you'll drive yourself mad trying to discern it.


I don't normally approve of this, but... In special cases like this...

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Re: Jibber Jabber - Q1 - 29

Postby Grayson Morris » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:15 am

steffenwolf wrote:
Grayson Morris wrote:
Kary James wrote:Would anyone like to comment on the usual time elapsed from the start of the flood until we get to the HMs, semis and finalists?

Usually, HMs seem to come out with rejections. Only higher categories are held up until close to the end.


Except when they're not. I've gotten HM and rejections after finalists were announced quite a few times. There is little rhyme or reason to the ordering, and you'll drive yourself mad trying to discern it.

I didn't mean ALL HMs and come out before higher categories. I was responding to what seemed to be Kary's thought that rejections come out before HMs. Based on my four prior quarters of experience, the e-mails coming out now are probably a mix of HMs and straight rejections, both of which show as rejections (or form rejections) on Duotrope.
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Re: Jibber Jabber - Q1 - 29

Postby Strycher » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:58 am

Martin L. Shoemaker wrote:
steffenwolf wrote:There is little rhyme or reason to the ordering, and you'll drive yourself mad trying to discern it.


I don't normally approve of this, but... In special cases like this...

wotf009


::Preserved for posterity.::

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Re: Jibber Jabber - Q1 - 29

Postby steffenwolf » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:02 am

Grayson Morris wrote:I didn't mean ALL HMs and come out before higher categories. I was responding to what seemed to be Kary's thought that rejections come out before HMs. Based on my four prior quarters of experience, the e-mails coming out now are probably a mix of HMs and straight rejections, both of which show as rejections (or form rejections) on Duotrope.


My mistake. I was responding to "Only higher categories are held up until close to the end", to me that sounded like you were saying HMs and rejections are sure to have been before semifinalists/finalists are announced.
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Re: Jibber Jabber - Q1 - 29

Postby Grayson Morris » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:05 am

steffenwolf wrote:
Grayson Morris wrote:I didn't mean ALL HMs and come out before higher categories. I was responding to what seemed to be Kary's thought that rejections come out before HMs. Based on my four prior quarters of experience, the e-mails coming out now are probably a mix of HMs and straight rejections, both of which show as rejections (or form rejections) on Duotrope.


My mistake. I was responding to "Only higher categories are held up until close to the end", to me that sounded like you were saying HMs and rejections are sure to have been before semifinalists/finalists are announced.

No, sorry for the confusion! That wasn't very clear of me.
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Re: Jibber Jabber - Q1 - 29

Postby Dustin Adams » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:18 am

CaptMickeyd,

Sorry to hear about the reject.

I'd be happy to look at your Q2 when you're finished with it, if you'd like my input.
I'll warn you ahead, I tend to make a lot of suggestions, but I don't rewrite. That's for you to do (or not do) based on my opinion/observation.

Send me a PM if/when the time comes.
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Re: Jibber Jabber - Q1 - 29

Postby Martin L. Shoemaker » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:22 am

Dustin Adams wrote:CaptMickeyd,

Sorry to hear about the reject.

I'd be happy to look at your Q2 when you're finished with it, if you'd like my input.
I'll warn you ahead, I tend to make a lot of suggestions, but I don't rewrite. That's for you to do (or not do) based on my opinion/observation.

Send me a PM if/when the time comes.


I'll vouch for Dustin as a good reviewer, even when he somehow mind-controls me into sending him a story!
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WRITE! WRITE! WRITE! WRITE! WRITE!
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Re: Jibber Jabber - Q1 - 29

Postby morshana » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:01 am

Martin L. Shoemaker wrote:
Dustin Adams wrote:CaptMickeyd,

Sorry to hear about the reject.

I'd be happy to look at your Q2 when you're finished with it, if you'd like my input.
I'll warn you ahead, I tend to make a lot of suggestions, but I don't rewrite. That's for you to do (or not do) based on my opinion/observation.

Send me a PM if/when the time comes.


I'll vouch for Dustin as a good reviewer, even when he somehow mind-controls me into sending him a story!


lol "Come into my tea parlor little flies. I won't bite."

Yes, I second that vouch. I found Dustin's comments very helpful for my Q1 submission. Now I try to busy myself with getting Q2 ready for submission and perhaps write some new stories to distract me from the fact that responses are coming in earnest now. Write write write. I will repeat that mantra. Very calming and it might help me get some actual writing done!
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Re: Jibber Jabber - Q1 - 29

Postby s_c_baker » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:06 pm

Very cool on the new results-only threads. Thanks, Brad and David! wotf007

Let the jibber-jabber continue...

Commiserations, Michael. Worry not: statistically speaking, almost (if not) all of us will be joining you before the Quarter ends.

(How's that for a cheery note of optimism?)
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Re: Jibber Jabber - Q1 - 29

Postby Patrick S. McGinnity » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:26 pm

Yep. It is interesting to note that of those who keep submission tracker's through Duotrope, the acceptance rate for WOTF is 2.2%, which applied to 100 or so gives us 2, but if applied to the whole batch for quarter could be as high as 22! A bit above the usual number of finalists and winners, right? Of course, people who get semi's may be reporting them as acceptances (I recall a detailed discussion of how folks identify different responses on Duotrope, so we needn't rehash it here).

The thing that interests me is wondering who is more likely to use Duotrope regularly. Does the WOTF acceptance rate in Duotrope look high because there are more pro and almost-pro writers included in the averages, or just because of misreporting (HM as Acceptance instead of Rejection, or Semi as acceptance instead of Personal Rejection) which might (or might not) be more likely to happen less-experienced/jaded folks?

I swear I am not in a position where I can write, Martin--I'm just burning time between classes, and Duotrope is still a shiny new toy to me.
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Re: Jibber Jabber - Q1 - 29

Postby Patrick S. McGinnity » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:27 pm

Though I suppose I ought to do something productive, like grade or clean my office. Oh well.
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Re: Jibber Jabber - Q1 - 29

Postby Martin L. Shoemaker » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:28 pm

Patrick S. McGinnity wrote:Though I suppose I ought to do something productive, like grade or clean my office. Oh well.


Or... WRITE! WRITE! WRITE! WRITE! WRITE!

And oh, yeah... WRITE!
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Re: Jibber Jabber - Q1 - 29

Postby s_c_baker » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:52 pm

Grade?

GRADE?

Good gods, man. Get a hold of yourself. wotf004

Patrick S. McGinnity wrote:Yep. It is interesting to note that of those who keep submission tracker's through Duotrope, the acceptance rate for WOTF is 2.2%, which applied to 100 or so gives us 2, but if applied to the whole batch for quarter could be as high as 22! A bit above the usual number of finalists and winners, right? Of course, people who get semi's may be reporting them as acceptances (I recall a detailed discussion of how folks identify different responses on Duotrope, so we needn't rehash it here).

I can recall several. Anyway, I think 2.2% is generally about right given the number of entries reported on Duotrope. You'll note that Duotrope only keeps records for 12 months at a time, and the total number for that 2.2% is 409 reports, resulting in around 9 "acceptances" in a year. Even with the false acceptances, that's probably not too far off.
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Re: Jibber Jabber - Q1 - 29

Postby gower21 » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:55 pm

Wow! A lot has happened since yesterday. Results, new sub-forum. I think a topic dedicated to just results will be nice. Well have to remind people to go report there so it gets used (hard to break habits and all).

As far as rejections go, All of mine came in after Finalists were called or just before. Silver HM's and Semi had been announced and or the last batch of HMs were announced. One of the rejections never got to me, but I'm pretty sure it was a rejection. Although it has gotten some personal rejections at some magazines...I'm shocked, it's way to far out for any one to seriously ever consider publishing it. I don't think there is any rhyme or reason to what order they get read in. Part of me wonders if she does a skim run where she checks the first and last paragraphs to reject that way. Editors often say they will sit and read the first three sentences of a story and reject a large pile, then go back to the ones that stirred some interest. That is purely a guess though.

For some reason I don't really care much for checking Duotrope for results this quarter. I really think the paper submission has helped me with the fear of my inbox and looking for results. This might be the ticket for me, postage will be a small price to pay for the extra time I've gained from being able to write doubt free. Although I'd love to break into an HM this quarter, I have a plan for my Q1 story.

Sorry Captn, about your rejection. The first one (for the contest) is hard. WOTF is the only market I've ever stressed over. Dustin is a good reviewer. I like his style of pointing out parts where the writing could be stronger. Sometimes it is hard to see those spots while immersed in the story.

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Re: Jibber Jabber - Q1 - 29

Postby morshana » Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:09 pm

@Tina - Good point on paper submissions as a possible cure for Duotropery. I might give that a try this round...

@CaptMickeyd - And commiserations to you on your rejection.
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Re: Jibber Jabber - Q1 - 29

Postby george nik. » Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:55 pm

Patrick S. McGinnity wrote:Yep. It is interesting to note that of those who keep submission tracker's through Duotrope, the acceptance rate for WOTF is 2.2%, which applied to 100 or so gives us 2, but if applied to the whole batch for quarter could be as high as 22! A bit above the usual number of finalists and winners, right? Of course, people who get semi's may be reporting them as acceptances (I recall a detailed discussion of how folks identify different responses on Duotrope, so we needn't rehash it here).

The thing that interests me is wondering who is more likely to use Duotrope regularly. Does the WOTF acceptance rate in Duotrope look high because there are more pro and almost-pro writers included in the averages, or just because of misreporting (HM as Acceptance instead of Rejection, or Semi as acceptance instead of Personal Rejection) which might (or might not) be more likely to happen less-experienced/jaded folks?

I swear I am not in a position where I can write, Martin--I'm just burning time between classes, and Duotrope is still a shiny new toy to me.

That's a very interesting post, Patrick, you're addressing many issues that I've been wanting to address these days, so let me ramble on for a while (since we are officially the jibber-jabber thread now, I guess you won't mind).

If the 1000 submissions per quarter is right, and we have 3 winners per quarter, then WOTF acceptance rate should be 0.3%. That's a whole lot less than Duotrope's 2.2%.

Some possible explanations, any of which might or might not be valid:
a. As Duotrope itself states, people often don't bother reporting rejections, so this raises the acceptances' percentage. I dread to think what the real acceptance rate of some other markets might be, if that's really the case.
b. As you have already mentioned, some people might consider a finalist position - or a semi-finalist - or even an HM as an acceptance. It isn't (that's why we can't know if the rejections reported on Duotrope now are actually "rejections" (WOTF-wise) or HMs or whatever) but it's quite probable that some people think of it this way.
c. As you also suggested, there is a very strong possibility that Duotrope acceptances have a much higher percentage than overall acceptances. As I recall reading somewhere in the forum, KD herself has stated that many people send stories that aren't even speculative fiction to begin with. People who use Duotrope are much more likely to know what kind of stories should be submitted to WOTF (or to any market for that matter) because that's Duotrope's main purpose anyway. Also I believe people who use Duotrope are more likely to be more seriously involved with writing and it's not improbable that they are more experienced writers on average (not meaning to suggest, obviously, that using Duotrope makes you a better writer, just that more experienced writers are more likely to be using Duotrope).

Another thought: Duotrope acceptances have an average reporting time 111.9 days while rejections have 86.5 days. That's obvious, though, so I'm not elaborating further on it.

Some thoughts on Duotrope and electronic/postal submissions, also: Postal submissions reported on Duotrope are around 3.75% of total submissions. Is this a reasonable percentage, or does it mean that people submitting postally are usually people that dislike computers and are highly unlikely to use Duotrope?
There are exceptions of course - I know Tina submitted postally and I recall some others in the forum saying they also did (though I can't remember who), but on average I think it's very likely.
I should also mention that only 15 people have reported postal submissions through the whole year, ALL of them were rejections, and nobody has reported for Q1 yet.
George Nikolopoulos
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Re: Jibber Jabber - Q1 - 29

Postby s_c_baker » Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:03 pm

With postal vs electronic, it's worth keeping in mind that it's only recently the contest has made the switch to electronic even being possible. I suspect that in a year or two, that 3.75% will be significantly lower.

The biggest problem with trying to use duotrope to determine acceptance rates is: not all writers use it.
Stewart C Baker - 1st place, Q2 V32
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Re: Jibber Jabber - Q1 - 29

Postby greenroom » Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:07 pm

Kary James wrote:Would anyone like to comment on the usual time elapsed from the start of the flood until we get to the HMs, semis and finalists?


My bet is one month until all the responses go out and the finalists are notified, though it might be considerably longer before the finalists can own up to being notified. This is based on nothing but my own observations of recent quarters, and hence, could be completely off base.
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Re: Jibber Jabber - Q1 - 29

Postby madison » Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:12 pm

I hope y'all know how bad it irritates me that I misspelled commiserate the first time I used it either this morning or last night...can't remember now (been a long day). Many, many posts down the line. wotf020 If I have time to scroll back that far I will go edit it out.

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Re: Jibber Jabber - Q1 - 29

Postby s_c_baker » Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:26 pm

madison wrote:I hope y'all know how bad it irritates me that I misspelled commiserate the first time I used it either this morning or last night...can't remember now (been a long day). Many, many posts down the line. wotf020 If I have time to scroll back that far I will go edit it out.

If it makes you feel better, I tried to write "comisserate" or something like that. Fortunately, Firefox has spellcheck, which I occasionally use... wotf007
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Re: Jibber Jabber - Q1 - 29

Postby Martin L. Shoemaker » Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:33 pm

madison wrote:I hope y'all know how bad it irritates me that I misspelled commiserate the first time I used it either this morning or last night...can't remember now (been a long day). Many, many posts down the line. wotf020 If I have time to scroll back that far I will go edit it out.


Trust me... We all commiserate with you...
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