Jibber Jabber - Q1 - 29

[DavidK]

An HM or higher would be nice, but I won't wait around for it anymore.

Tina,

I send my stuff to many markets, but I always reserve time for WOTF and will do until I pro out. I think the rewards to the comp are worthwhile, and you can gauge how you're going based on HMs and the like. It's ONE market for me - an important one - but not the only one. For me the trick is to write enough stories to go around to those markets I'm keen on.

WRITE!WRITE!WRITE!

[izanobu]

I've never gotten a finalist. I must not be writing at a pro level yet.

That's danger thinking. I do know some people who write very well who have never gotten anything but straight rejections from this contest. I won't out the particular people I'm thinking of, since they don't post here, but it happens. If I cherry-picked my stories, I could manage straight rejections here, too. I'm not surprised, for example, my one rejection was a story that opens with twin unicorns. I had hoped the uniqueness of the setting and the story itself would be enough to overlook that, but it clearly wasn't. A former winner read that story prior to me submitting it and gave it a 7 out of 10 chance of being a finalist story, and yet, straight reject.

I would argue that the only thing you can read into consistently getting HM or above is that you manage to send stories that fit between the lines of the judge's taste. It's not a value judgement on your work. Stories that get straight rejected here might go on to sell elsewhere without any trouble. I'm 99% certain that a story I sold Daily SF wouldn't have made it out of the reject pile here due to subject matter and theme, yet it sold to the second or third market I sent it and will net me hundreds of dollars. It would have been rejected by KD (I can't see a pedophile or underage sex with a dragon going over well in this contest). Every story is different, every market is different.

I guess I'm just against using markets as a way to tell your own writing quality. Are you serious about writing? Then you need to improve your craft. I don't care who you are. Anyone who writes for a living should be constantly working to improve their craft. Period. In my opinion, of course. I don't believe in "good enough" only in "better than before and not as good I could be with more work".

[Dustin Adams]

Annie,

My comment about finalist wasn't aimed at you, it was aimed at me.

I don't see the danger in believing the feedback of an editor. That's all non-winning finalist is. One editor, one market. That's what an HM is. Same editor, same market, lower tier rejection.

And yes, submitting stories that fit the market, to the market your sending to, will up your odds of getting a tiered rejection. Sending stories that don't fit the market will get you consistent rejections. That wasn't the point I was trying to make.

If I don't use markets to gauge my own writing quality, how can I gauge it? "Write more in a vacuum." doesn't cut it if I'm trying to go pro.

Form reject - form reject - form reject --- I need to improve.
Personal feedback - form reject - personal feedback --- I'm getting better.
We will publish your story if the judges agree --- I'm very very close.

[izanobu]

Who said write in a vacuum? I'm saying don't take ONE editor's opinions to be a measure of where you stack up in general, that's all.

And, in my opinion, of course, there are much better ways to improve your craft than hoping for a line or two in a rejection that will tell you what to do. Find good first readers, preferably not writers, preferably people who read voraciously within the genre you want to write and who like the kinds of stories you are trying to tell. Study the best-selling books in your genre, make notes on how the writers do certain things, how they solve X problem with character or plotting. Make notes on what you like and dislike and what works or doesn't for you. With short fiction, do the same with the top writers and publications. Look closely at the stories and what works and how the writers use the different tools to tell that story while thinking about how you can fit those tools into your own toolbox. If you don't like a story or a book, think about WHY the readers would like it or why the editor picked that one. Give yourself writing exercises (when I felt like my beginnings sucked, I wrote 15 2-3 page beginnings to stories trying to get character, setting, and problem into the first page. Guess what? No more first readers or editors asking me to chop off the beginning or telling me they couldn't get into the story). There are a million ways to improve your craft that have nothing to do with market rejections.

All a rejection from a market can tell you is that that story didn't fit that market at that time. All editor comments can tell you is how that person would change your story. Frankly, from my experience if an editor truly believes those changes would take a story from no to yes, they'll buy it and then ask you for the changes or at the very least ask for a rewrite/resubmission.

The thing is, an editor's opinion on a story is just one person's opinion. That's all. I'm not saying completely discount those. Take them and file away the information if you get any for the next story you send to that market (hey, KD doesn't like unicorns even a little, good to know). But to gauge where your writing skill is at based on one market and one opinion, which is what someone upthread said I believe, seems like madness to me. There are markets I'm pretty sure I'll never sell to *coughclarkesworldcough* and if I only submitted to that market, waiting for a personal rejection to tell me I'm good enough now to submit to other markets? I wouldn't have sold a single story, much less 11.

My opinion is that you shouldn't give anyone final say on your writing without a check attached. Ever. Follow Heinlein's Rules and keep writing, keep submitting, never stop learning. Don't let one person's tastes dictate your career.

[Isto]

I've never gotten a finalist. I must not be writing at a pro level yet.

That's danger thinking. I do know some people who write very well who have never gotten anything but straight rejections from this contest. ....I guess I'm just against using markets as a way to tell your own writing quality. Are you serious about writing? Then you need to improve your craft. I don't care who you are. Anyone who writes for a living should be constantly working to improve their craft. Period. In my opinion, of course. I don't believe in "good enough" only in "better than before and not as good I could be with more work".

First off, the rating system here is valuable. You, yourself, list your accomplishments at the end of each entry. It gives you respect and it should.

Second. It's my first entry. Am I in the correct market? Not sure. I've seen some pretty wild mainstream fiction. My entry could be sent there. I'm wondering which side of the fence it will fall on. If I get anything other than an R, at least I know I'm in the right genre's ballpark. A plain R tells nothing. It's just like a form rejection in the mail. But the rating system is feedback. And encouragement. THAT's why the rating system is valuable. Feedback is precious and the only way to improve your skills. But you also have to know when the feedback is valid and when it isn't. I went to a conference where Don Maass said he had the dubious honor of having passed on Hitchhiker's Guide. All feedback isn't right, but it's something to consider.

Third. Don't be too hard on the Duotrope statisticians. It's hard to tell what's for fun and what's serious when it's "in character". For one, I don't Duotrope, but I love reading what the number crunchers have to say.

[izanobu]

Fixed my signature. You are right, listing rejections in my sig is silly unless I'm going to list all of them and I don't have the room or patience to count (I'm over 400 and not quite to 500 yet, I think).

Being rejected shouldn't give anyone credibility. Saying stuff that makes sense to you should. If what I'm saying doesn't make sense to you, it clearly isn't advice you'll want to follow. And if you do follow it and it doesn't get you results, same thing. Do what works for you. I'm only offering up one opinion on what works for me.

[dantzel]

I guess I'm one of those people who writes a story and submits it first to WOTF sometimes, and sometimes submits it elsewhere first. I agree that no one should hinge their career on WOTf results, but I enjoy the speculation. As long as I don't get too obsessed over it and slow down my writing/submitting because of it, I won't feel bad about the speculation.

I just don't think a little speculation and the hardworking 'I won't be defeated by one rejection' mindset are mutually exclusive. Granted, I haven't been here as long as some and am not a heavy speculator for each of my stories, but why not ask around a little to get a feel for the market? As long as that's not all you do or most of what you do, to each her own.

[Isto]

Who said write in a vacuum? I'm saying don't take ONE editor's opinions to be a measure of where you stack up in general, that's all.....

The thing is, an editor's opinion on a story is just one person's opinion. That's all. I'm not saying completely discount those. ... But to gauge where your writing skill is at based on one market and one opinion, which is what someone upthread said I believe, seems like madness to me. There are markets I'm pretty sure I'll never sell to *coughclarkesworldcough* and if I only submitted to that market, waiting for a personal rejection to tell me I'm good enough now to submit to other markets? I wouldn't have sold a single story, much less 11.

My opinion is that you shouldn't give anyone final say on your writing without a check attached. Ever. Follow Heinlein's Rules and keep writing, keep submitting, never stop learning. Don't let one person's tastes dictate your career.

That was me. But I didn't mean to give the impression that I'm waiting for V29Q1 results to tell me if I can write or not. I'm writing anyway. "Where I'm at"...and "if it's good science fiction" refers to the genre and the market. If I get anything other than an R, I have an answer. Don't worry, I'm not going to toss myself off a bridge if I get a rejection. Believe me, I'm not fragile. But I am determined and stubborn and not afraid of hard work.

[AMcCarter]

I posted that video of KJA for a reason. The man NEVER WON. After 15 submissions, nothing. He must be an awful terrible writer.

Who makes a hell of a lot more money than I do at this.

I'm not going to argue the point, but I agree with Nobu. I have not sold a single story I submitted to this contest, honorable mention, semi-finalist or otherwise, professionally. I finally put my silver honorable mention up on Nook and Kindle and it's one of my best sellers. People sell rejections from this market to other markets all the time.

Do what you want. Some people just want to win this one contest and go on with their lives, others want careers. But if you want validation from an editor, good luck. It is not an editor's job to make you a better writer or make you feel better about your writing. Their job is to sell magazines and anthologies.

Hell, even from my own mother I get, "it was good, honey, but...."

The best compliment I ever got was from a reader who compared me to one of my favorite authors. And that's where your validation comes from, the reader. In the end, that's the only opinion that counts because they're the ones who will see you through this. They're the ones who read and enjoy it and buy your stuff.

[Isto]

Annie,

If I don't use markets to gauge my own writing quality, how can I gauge it? "Write more in a vacuum." doesn't cut it if I'm trying to go pro.

Form reject - form reject - form reject --- I need to improve.
Personal feedback - form reject - personal feedback --- I'm getting better.
We will publish your story if the judges agree --- I'm very very close.

AGREED!! Just what I wish I would have said a couple pages ago.

[Isto]

I posted that video of KJA for a reason. The man NEVER WON. After 15 submissions, nothing. He must be an awful terrible writer.

Who makes a hell of a lot more money than I do at this.

I'm not going to argue the point, but I agree with Nobu. I have not sold a single story I submitted to this contest, honorable mention, semi-finalist or otherwise, professionally. I finally put my silver honorable mention up on Nook and Kindle and it's one of my best sellers. People sell rejections from this market to other markets all the time.

Do what you want. Some people just want to win this one contest and go on with their lives, others want careers. But if you want validation from an editor, good luck. It is not an editor's job to make you a better writer or make you feel better about your writing. Their job is to sell magazines and anthologies.

Hell, even from my own mother I get, "it was good, honey, but...."

The best compliment I ever got was from a reader who compared me to one of my favorite authors. And that's where your validation comes from, the reader. In the end, that's the only opinion that counts because they're the ones who will see you through this. They're the ones who read and enjoy it and buy your stuff.

Ok, I can see we are talking about totally different things. "The man never won... he must be a terrible writer..?
Is that really what you think we all believe? Or ANY of us? You talk about him selling stuff (validation) and your mother and others reading your work and commenting (validation), your own accomplishments on WOTF (validation). If I'm not mistaken, that's what this contest is for... new writers. Especially those on outside trying to find a way in. I'm not going to argue the point any more either. I've written three novels (submitted one), have submitted to twelve other magazines this month so far. Six more to go out tomorrow. I'm not sure what you think I'm saying. I'm just saying the HM, Silver HM, Semi-finalist, Finalist achievements are GOOD things. A crumb of encouragement in a harsh and busy industry. And I, for one, AM GRATEFUL THEY'RE THERE!!

Done and done.

[hazlett]

If I can prove that I can sell a short story in this contest (or achieve any form of recognition - HM or better), I will then start submitting to the pro mags. Pending several sales there (a man can dream, right?), I will then take a stab at writing a longer-form work. The deadlines and quarterly submissions of the contest give me concrete objectives I can target, and keep me on track.

If that works for you, great! But I think you'd do better to submit to the pro markets now, and just see WotF as one of the pro markets.

I think treating any one market as a "quality bar" for all other markets misunderstands the way these markets work. Editors have different tastes and different needs. Markets have different tones and styles. Just because you don't strike the mark with K.D. doesn't mean you can't find a pro market where you'll sell.

I disagree with many on this site about waiting to win before one submits to other markets. While I agree that one shouldn't use the contest as a quality bar, I do think one has an objectively better chance of selling to other markets after winning the contest. Stories that would otherwise not get attention at a pro mag because an author is unknown, likely have a higher probability of being accepted once an author is "validated" by WOTF. I think this dynamic is even more important in an environment where there is a high level of subjectivity in decision-making. When two stories are roughly equal, editors may be more likely to go with the proven talent because it sells more magazines.

On the one hand, one very important difference between the WOTF contest and other markets is that it is a blind submission. Whether one is a proven or unproven author who has reliably sold short stories to other markets is immaterial to whether one wins. However, it is a critical element for other commercial markets.

On the other hand, most other markets will look at an author's track record. Remember, they are running businesses. While writing a great story is a critical component of selling magazines, publishing the works of well-known and established authors is also a key component because these authors have established followings who will buy a magazine simply because that author's name is on the cover. In some cases, these stories aren't even that good, but the author is well-known. An editor has to balance the two to ensure he or she runs a profitable magazine. I doubt any of them will admit this point, but they might not be in business if they only selected the "best" stories.

All things being equal, an established author has a much higher probability of selling an identical story to a pro market than an unestablished author. As such, being able to establish one's credibility with a WOTF win on one's cover letter improves one's chances of publishing a story immensely.

I don't intend to submit only to WOTF indefinitely. I think two years worth of attempts (8 submissions) is probably overkill, for instance. I just want to ensure that anything I submit to a pro-market (which seem to have rejection rates of 98%+) has the best chance of getting accepted.

[WriteToLive]

If you quantitize it based upon stats like that, it'd be useless for anyone to enter. After all, it's always a 98+% chance you won't get anything (HM on up).

But, that means you're not looking at the qualitative data behind the stats. There are themes of stories which do better than others (KD does read a lot of vampire stories and doesn't care for them from what I understand). Therefore, by the theme, they would have a higher chance of getting rejected. However, on the converse, stories about discovery seem to do better in the contest, making the likelyhood of rejection lower.

Then, there's experience, which seems to have no bearing upon the choices, but many new and undiscovered writers seem to win the competition.

AND THEN, there's quality of writing, where a reader is able to stay hooked throughout the work, propper word choice, world building, etc.

It's easy to consider it a quality bar because it's a contest and your works are being judged, while only 12 are accepted for publication. Nevertheless, this is a market. The editor (KD) reads the work, then submits them onto the head editors (the contest readers) for those she likes, and then out of them, three get picked. It's the same as any other market.

And, like I said earlier, Detroit Ex Nihilo was form rejected from Clarkesworld and Lightspeed before AE jumped on it. They weren't "near miss" letters, either. They flat out rejected them.

But, some one bought it.

Therefore, I don't try to look at the statistics of everything. I just say "oh, here's an open market" and submit to it. Granted, I have about 33 stories I need to keep out there (some are being held over for a while longer than normal, which is good), but they're merely numbers. Numbers you can change with writing more, submitting more, and waiting more.

Rejections are not rejecting the work becuase it's bad. It's rejecting the work because it's not a right fit for the market.

[izanobu]

Actually, this all started when I said that duotropery wasn't useful. I still don't think it is.

Asking "hey, what kind of story got an HM or made finalist here?" can be useful.

Asking "hey, when did you submit that story that got rejected?" isn't, in my opinion. That's what I feel is time-wasty. The only results that matter are your own. No one else's results can tell you anything about your results (except maybe that whenever the finalist list is posted and you aren't on it, you know you are free to sub that story elsewhere no matter what you have heard or not). It's the speculating on other people's results and timings that seems navel-gazing to me. Which is, of course, just my opinion. It's my hope that once I get my final result, I won't even click on this forum anymore because there won't be any relevant information for me here. But sometimes people post the press release list before Joni sends results, so I keep checking. It's like a car crash sometimes. I can't seem to look away.

[WriteToLive]

I agree. Duotrope is good for knowing when an editor is hanging onto your piece (if you see 20 rejections come out and they submitted after you, you pretty much know they got to your work). They're also good for keeping track of your submissions. But, other than that, you can't read too much into it after that. If you do, you'll drive yourself nuts.

[Jess]

Put me on the "no results yet" list. I guess I've been MIA up until now. (My computer died and I've been trapped in limbo for the past week or so, helpless and alone, awaiting the arrival of my new one. It's amazing how hard it is to get anything done without one. Couldn't do anything with in-progress stuff because I couldn't get at it. Couldn't submit anything, couldn't print anything...and so on.

On the bright side, I now have a few pages of outline/notes for a new story, and I've managed to avoid stressing over computer issues by playing way too much Skyrim. And now that I spent most of yesterday installing and organizing things, I think I'm just about ready to go again. Whee!

[AMcCarter]

Isto, if it's not so important that you win WotF, then why make such a big deal out of what you win from the contest or get a note saying what was wrong? Yes, Writers of the Future is a very valuable market. So is any professional market. What I'm saying is using one market to validate your writing is a fool's errand. If anything, WotF encouraged me to submit to as many markets as possible, as often as possible. Am I looking for validation?/ Maybe. I get great joy from knowing people enjoyed my work. But if that's all I was after, I'd put everything up for free or send to token markets. I want to be known and respected as a professional writer. Getting a pat on a back and a cookie isn't going to do that.

[gower21]

An HM or higher would be nice, but I won't wait around for it anymore.

Tina,

I send my stuff to many markets, but I always reserve time for WOTF and will do until I pro out. I think the rewards to the comp are worthwhile, and you can gauge how you're going based on HMs and the like. It's ONE market for me - an important one - but not the only one. For me the trick is to write enough stories to go around to those markets I'm keen on.

WRITE!WRITE!WRITE!

I think I wrote that somewhat confusing. I meant that I'm not one to wait until I have an HM or higher to start submitting to other places. I'm of the mind that a good story will sell. I won't give up on this contest until I pro out. I might miss a quarter if I've got too many projects going on, but I won't give up.

Also Thank you to Amanda for posting KJA's speech. I think we all need to be reminded regularly that success can happen 1,001 different ways.

[Grayson Morris]

How about we move the "write write write" lectures to threads on writing strategy, or something. That is: I'm kind of tired of horsing around here and having people come in and tell me what I should be doing instead. It's a JIBBER JABBER thread on entries to this particular quarter of the contest. I'd like to think we are entitled to blab about waiting for results here without being lectured on how we should approach the writing process.

[steffenwolf]

Here, it's my turn to stir the pot...

See that 143-day rejection on Duotrope? It's all out of order with the rest of them, which have been more or less proceeding from early entries to late. I wouldn't be surprised if that was:

A) an Honorable Mention, or
B) an early paper sub
C) an almost HM that was put aside, reconsidered, then rejected (no clue if that actually happens)

Arguing against the paper sub hypothesis is the fact that the reject came on a day where we know there were email rejections, too. One would think snail mail rejects might show up a day or three *after* the main wave.

Do with this what you will. :D

I hate to ruin your speculation because you seem to be enjoying it so much, but that 143-day rejection was me. The submissions fits your option "B". Not an HM, and presumably not an almost-HM. Mystery solved!

Although, the post that someone got a Q1 form rejection when they didn't send a Q1 story makes me wonder about mine, especially since there was no author or story title in the rejection. I'm wondering a little bit, but I'm going to take this at face value and if it happens to be some kind of bizarre correspondence error then I will deal with that as it arises.

[steffenwolf]

Did I mention that I really like the new results-only threads? I can drop in here when I feel inclined for longer reading, rather than skimming over the millionth iteration of the "obsessing vs. thinking about something else" conversation. :D

[Kary English]

Thanks, David. So you were an early paper sub, hmmm? Ok, cool. So we know she's started in on paper, then.

[francisbruno]

Thanks, David. So you were an early paper sub, hmmm? Ok, cool. So we know she's started in on paper, then.

From his post in the other forum, it looked like an early e-sub.
-F

[steffenwolf]

Thanks, David. So you were an early paper sub, hmmm? Ok, cool. So we know she's started in on paper, then.

From his post in the other forum, it looked like an early e-sub.
-F

Nope, early paper sub. I tried one e-submission with WotF, and I got a confirmation but then found out that they didn't receive it. So I do not trust their e-submission system and will never use it again unless there is no other option.

You might've thought it was an e-submission because I got my response via email. Despite always submitting via mail (except the one time) I've gotten some rejections from WotF by mail, some by email, and one time by phone (when the rejection email inexplicably bounced and Joni phoned me to make sure that my HM mailing address was still accurate).

[MedicalAuthor]

Sounds like tensions are getting a little high in here.

I'll just say that I still have my war helmet on, and am ready for the next phase....

[Dustin Adams]

Good thing we have a medical author in the house.

[francisbruno]

OK, stand corrected.
So She's onto paper subs.... Hmmmm.... Probably reading too much into this, but I must have won.

[Kary English]

OK, stand corrected.
So She's onto paper subs.... Hmmmm.... Probably reading too much into this, but I must have won.

ROFL!! Hear, hear!

[anarresti]

Would it be considered rude if I asked whether my submission was in the pile? I've done electronic subs and this talk about unreliability has gotten me concerned.
Mike

[Kary English]

IMHO, it's too early to query. Also, Joni is probably up to her eyeballs with the workshop and gala this week. I fell ya on the anxiety as I'm there, too, but I think we should wait it out.