Dave Wolverton's 10 reasons why he rejects a story

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Re: Dave Wolverton's 10 reasons why he rejects a story

Postby LDWriter2 » Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:21 pm

Strycher wrote:
LDWriter2 wrote:
s_c_baker wrote:I do wish we could lay that hold pile thing to rest. No news is no news, not good news.



Well, more than likely it won't happen again for quite a while but some of the stories were placed there for a reason.


Wanting a second look at a story does not mean it won't be a straight rejection. People end up in the second look pile at Daily Science Fiction, Shimmer, and other markets that notify you if you make it to the second round and still end up with form rejections.



But it does give some reason for hope and the knowledge you were better than average at least. That's something for many beginners and some not so beginners.
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Re: Dave Wolverton's 10 reasons why he rejects a story

Postby Dustin Adams » Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:42 am

Dave Wolverton's 10 pages of why he rejects a story.
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Re: Dave Wolverton's 10 reasons why he rejects a story

Postby s_c_baker » Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:43 am

LDWriter2 wrote:
Strycher wrote:Wanting a second look at a story does not mean it won't be a straight rejection. People end up in the second look pile at Daily Science Fiction, Shimmer, and other markets that notify you if you make it to the second round and still end up with form rejections.


But it does give some reason for hope and the knowledge you were better than average at least. That's something for many beginners and some not so beginners.

Reason for hope? Maybe.

Knowledge that you were better than average? I disagree entirely, at least so far as the mythical WotF "hold pile" goes.

There's a big difference between "Since my story was in the hold pile, I can hope that it meant I was going to get HM or better" and "Since my story was in the hold pile, my story was definitely going to get HM or better until DF took over the contest and rejected it."

I hate to seem like I keep hammering on this, but most of the posts I see on the "hold pile" read more like the latter than the former.

To go with Strycher's comparison to other markets, I suspect the "second round" in those basically just means "Congratulations, you did not turn in a poem/cookbook/memoir/MS-containing-600-pages-of-gibberish! Now someone will actually read your story."

With WotF, all we can really say for absolutely certain is that KD didn't assign places to stories in the "hold pile." Whether that means she thought they were HM-or-better quality or whether she wanted a second read before deciding, or even whether she just hadn't read them before she passed away is impossible to tell.
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Re: Dave Wolverton's 10 reasons why he rejects a story

Postby s_c_baker » Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:44 am

Dustin Adams wrote:Dave Wolverton's 10 pages of why he rejects a story.
Egads. wotf011

I think we're probably at something like a 33% relevance to topic ratio... wotf001
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Re: Dave Wolverton's 10 reasons why he rejects a story

Postby MJNL » Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:30 am

Warning: this post really has nothing concrete to do with KD, DF, or anything related to the contest--I’m largely speculating--but...

I've been reading slush at a mag for about a month now. We've got rounds--round one is the slush readers, round two is the editors proper. In WotF terms, that's round one DF, round two four random judges. Only eight stories a quarter make it to round two for WotF--far more make it through at the mag I volunteer for.

As a first reader, I've already had occasions where I look at a story, think I might reject it, but don't right away. Maybe I'm sleepy. Maybe I think I misread something. Maybe it's got some redeeming factor that I think might make it more attractive in the light of a new day. So I write down my first impressions and move on to something else. Essentially, I've created a hold pile. Thus far, every time, I've come back and rejected the story (ETA: But in the future, I'm sure I'll pass some up to the next round). My first impressions were correct, but I didn't want to pull the trigger hastily.

We've got to remember that KD was very ill towards the end. I'm guessing her hold pile consisted of stories she looked at initially but thought she couldn't make a sound judgment about at the time. I'm pretty sure rejections, HMs, and above came out of that pile, which kind of supports my theory. It might not have been a "this is better than most" pile so much as a "I don't think I'm doing this story justice if I label it right now" pile.

And that in itself, of course, doesn't say anything extra about the stories that got rejected out of it. All we know is that the person who passed judgment on them in the long run didn't care for them. They might still be spectacular stories that just have to find their proper audience.

So, I'm presenting my experience as a way to maybe alleviate some of the sourness of those who got rejected out of KD's hold pile (if there is indeed any sourness still floating around--perhaps there isn't). It really might not be that someone thought a story was great and then some meanie came along and rejected it. It might just be that an ill person knew she wasn't performing to the best of her abilities, and didn't want the authors to suffer for it.
Last edited by MJNL on Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dave Wolverton's 10 reasons why he rejects a story

Postby Strycher » Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:48 am

Thanks for sharing Marina. What you've described makes sense to me.

s_c_baker wrote:With WotF, all we can really say for absolutely certain is that KD didn't assign places to stories in the "hold pile."


I think it's worth noting that when she found a story that she thought was a Finalist, she didn't put it in the hold pile, she marked it as Finalist. (IIRC it was Martin who had the honor of being KD's last Finalist, yes?)

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Re: Dave Wolverton's 10 reasons why he rejects a story

Postby MJNL » Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:53 am

Strycher wrote:IIRC it was Martin who had the honor of being KD's last Finalist, yes?


Indeed.
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Re: Dave Wolverton's 10 reasons why he rejects a story

Postby Dustin Adams » Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:35 am

KDW wrote:I read a story until I know that it's not going to be an Honorable Mention or higher. That could be just a couple of pages or the whole manuscript. Anything that gets put into the possible Finalists pile is read all the way through.
Occasionally, I'll read a piece that is so outstanding that I'll mark it Finalist upon my first reading. That doesn't happen usually more than once or twice a quarter, though one fabulous quarter I wound up with five of those.

Martin's story got marked - after that stories were "held". Now, were they in the "possible finalists" pile? Or just set aside to be pruned down at a later date?
We don't know.
But she did say she reads until she knows something is NOT going to be an HM or higher. (Reject pile) One must assume that if something was held - then it wasn't outright rejected.
We don't know.
Shouldn't this conversation be on the epic Q1 thread? wotf039
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Re: Dave Wolverton's 10 reasons why he rejects a story

Postby s_c_baker » Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:46 am

Shouldn't this conversation be on the epic Q1 thread? wotf039


wotf019

But she did say she reads until she knows something is NOT going to be an HM or higher. (Reject pile) One must assume that if something was held - then it wasn't outright rejected.

My only problem with this line of thought is that we don't know for sure if she even read them. Maybe the "hold pile" was just the "stories KD didn't read" pile.

No way of knowing.
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Re: Dave Wolverton's 10 reasons why he rejects a story

Postby Strycher » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:36 am

Dustin Adams wrote:One must assume that . . .


The argument from ignorance is a logical fallacy and a false dichotomy. I'm not going to continue to debate this.

There is a difference between fun, time-killing rejectomancy as a salve for the arduous wait of submissions, and constantly obsessing over a rejection letter that might have gone differently if the story had been on a different editor's desk.

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Re: Dave Wolverton's 10 reasons why he rejects a story

Postby gower21 » Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:37 pm

Strycher wrote:
Dustin Adams wrote:One must assume that . . .


The argument from ignorance is a logical fallacy and a false dichotomy. I'm not going to continue to debate this.

There is a difference between fun, time-killing rejectomancy as a salve for the arduous wait of submissions, and constantly obsessing over a rejection letter that might have gone differently if the story had been on a different editor's desk.


Newbies: This is our WOTF version of "Han shot first"

Lurkers: Hi.

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Re: Dave Wolverton's 10 reasons why he rejects a story

Postby Strycher » Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:52 pm

gower21 wrote:Newbies: This is our WOTF version of "Han shot first"

Lurkers: Hi.


::Dons the "Han shot first / Hold Pile = NNiNN" T-shirt"::

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Re: Dave Wolverton's 10 reasons why he rejects a story

Postby AlistairKimble » Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:04 pm

Strycher wrote:
gower21 wrote:Newbies: This is our WOTF version of "Han shot first"

Lurkers: Hi.


::Dons the "Han shot first / Hold Pile = NNiNN" T-shirt"::


Excellent.

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Re: Dave Wolverton's 10 reasons why he rejects a story

Postby s_c_baker » Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:35 pm

Strycher wrote:
gower21 wrote:Newbies: This is our WOTF version of "Han shot first"

Lurkers: Hi.


::Dons the "Han shot first / Hold Pile = NNiNN" T-shirt"::

wotf019
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Re: Dave Wolverton's 10 reasons why he rejects a story

Postby austinDm » Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:38 pm

Strycher wrote:
gower21 wrote:Newbies: This is our WOTF version of "Han shot first"

Lurkers: Hi.


::Dons the "Han shot first / Hold Pile = NNiNN" T-shirt"::

Where can I get one?

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Re: Dave Wolverton's 10 reasons why he rejects a story

Postby morshana » Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:37 pm

Awesome.

Han shot first.

Laugh it up fuzz balls.
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Re: Dave Wolverton's 10 reasons why he rejects a story

Postby bobsandiego » Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:59 pm

morshana wrote:Awesome.

Han shot first.

Laugh it up fuzz balls.


Han DID NOT shoot first.
Han Shoot ONLY. Greedo never got off a shot, so there is no first!
I am so hoping that the House of Mouse will release a pristine copy of Star Wars for us on home video....
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Re: Dave Wolverton's 10 reasons why he rejects a story

Postby morshana » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:40 am

bobsandiego wrote:
morshana wrote:Awesome.

Han shot first.

Laugh it up fuzz balls.


Han DID NOT shoot first.
Han Shoot ONLY. Greedo never got off a shot, so there is no first!
I am so hoping that the House of Mouse will release a pristine copy of Star Wars for us on home video....


True! Forgot about the original version where Han shoots in cold-blood. *grin*
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Re: Dave Wolverton's 10 reasons why he rejects a story

Postby Strycher » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:56 am

morshana wrote:
bobsandiego wrote:
morshana wrote:Awesome.

Han shot first.

Laugh it up fuzz balls.


Han DID NOT shoot first.
Han Shoot ONLY. Greedo never got off a shot, so there is no first!
I am so hoping that the House of Mouse will release a pristine copy of Star Wars for us on home video....


True! Forgot about the original version where Han shoots in cold-blood. *grin*


Because he's a mercenary. Mercenary = badass.

(And Greedo did shoot, it was a misfire in his death throes--which is why it's so ridiculous that it was changed to make it look like Greedo shot first and missed Han who was sitting two feet from him across the table.)

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Re: Dave Wolverton's 10 reasons why he rejects a story

Postby Dustin Adams » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:42 pm

morshana wrote:
Forgot about the original version where Han shoots in cold-blood. *grin*

I believe that was the plan. wotf013 One generation removed and no one will remember. The VHS copies will all be gone.

Oh, remember when Ep 1 was released on VHS before DVD? Ha!
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Re: Dave Wolverton's 10 reasons why he rejects a story

Postby s_c_baker » Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:24 pm

All this talk about Han Solo reminds me of an image I have burned into my mind, and now see every time someone mentions the phrase "hard science fiction" OR talks about Star Wars.

http://spacetrawler.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/hard_SF_final_web.jpg (not NSFW per se, but definitely in questionable taste--and hilarious. Star Wars fans may wish to avoid viewing, lest their fantasies are ruined. Star Wars fans who lust after Harrison Ford's younger self may wish to view immediately, so their fantasies may be enhanced... wotf001 )

Image from Christopher Baldwin of the excellent Space Trawler, which you ought to go read right now.
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Re: Dave Wolverton's 10 reasons why he rejects a story

Postby morshana » Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:13 pm

Strycher wrote:
morshana wrote:
bobsandiego wrote:
Han DID NOT shoot first.
Han Shoot ONLY. Greedo never got off a shot, so there is no first!
I am so hoping that the House of Mouse will release a pristine copy of Star Wars for us on home video....


True! Forgot about the original version where Han shoots in cold-blood. *grin*


Because he's a mercenary. Mercenary = badass.

(And Greedo did shoot, it was a misfire in his death throes--which is why it's so ridiculous that it was changed to make it look like Greedo shot first and missed Han who was sitting two feet from him across the table.)


Yes, yes. Mercenary = badass = sexy.
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Re: Dave Wolverton's 10 reasons why he rejects a story

Postby LDWriter2 » Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:00 pm

morshana wrote:
bobsandiego wrote:
morshana wrote:Awesome.

Han shot first.

Laugh it up fuzz balls.


Han DID NOT shoot first.
Han Shoot ONLY. Greedo never got off a shot, so there is no first!
I am so hoping that the House of Mouse will release a pristine copy of Star Wars for us on home video....


True! Forgot about the original version where Han shoots in cold-blood. *grin*



Hmm, there's a version where the other guy shots too?

But Hans shot first because the other guy was going to shot. Or he was about to lead him away to Jabba, which amounts to the same thing.
Working on turning Lead into Gold.

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Re: Dave Wolverton's 10 reasons why he rejects a story

Postby LDWriter2 » Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:04 pm

Strycher wrote:(And Greedo did shoot, it was a misfire in his death throes--which is why it's so ridiculous that it was changed to make it look like Greedo shot first and missed Han who was sitting two feet from him across the table.)




Hmm, I've seen a couple different versions but don't recall that.
Working on turning Lead into Gold.

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The latest was Q1'12
HM-quarter 4 Volume 32
One HM for another contest
published in Strange New Worlds Ten.
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Re: Dave Wolverton's 10 reasons why he rejects a story

Postby Strycher » Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:44 am

LDWriter2 wrote:
Strycher wrote:(And Greedo did shoot, it was a misfire in his death throes--which is why it's so ridiculous that it was changed to make it look like Greedo shot first and missed Han who was sitting two feet from him across the table.)




Hmm, I've seen a couple different versions but don't recall that.


Well, that's because I was mistaken! Appearantly there aren't any visible shots in the original cut.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu-TZpGdszA

But Han did shoot first. And it's still ridiculous that Greedo would miss Han from two feet across the table.

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Re: Dave Wolverton's 10 reasons why he rejects a story

Postby Strycher » Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:49 am

morshana wrote:Yes, yes. Mercenary = badass = sexy.


Right, exactly.

s_c_baker wrote:All this talk about Han Solo reminds me of an image I have burned into my mind, and now see every time someone mentions the phrase "hard science fiction" OR talks about Star Wars.

http://spacetrawler.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/hard_SF_final_web.jpg (not NSFW per se, but definitely in questionable taste--and hilarious. Star Wars fans may wish to avoid viewing, lest their fantasies are ruined. Star Wars fans who lust after Harrison Ford's younger self may wish to view immediately, so their fantasies may be enhanced... wotf001 )

Image from Christopher Baldwin of the excellent Space Trawler, which you ought to go read right now.


That link doesn't work for me.

The image I have burned in my mind would be this one from Something Awful (like ten years ago):



Image

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Re: Dave Wolverton's 10 reasons why he rejects a story

Postby Rebecca Birch » Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:37 am

Strycher wrote:
The image I have burned in my mind would be this one from Something Awful (like ten years ago):



Image


MY EYES!!!! wotf039
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Re: Dave Wolverton's 10 reasons why he rejects a story

Postby s_c_baker » Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:17 pm

Strycher wrote:That link doesn't work for me.

The image I have burned in my mind would be this one from Something Awful (like ten years ago):



Image

Doesn't work for you, or doesn't work for you? (if you get my drift, nudge wink etc.)

I can access it fine.

That's a hilarious image too, though! wotf019
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Re: Dave Wolverton's 10 reasons why he rejects a story

Postby Strycher » Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:18 am

s_c_baker wrote:
Strycher wrote:That link doesn't work for me.

The image I have burned in my mind would be this one from Something Awful (like ten years ago):



Image

Doesn't work for you, or doesn't work for you? (if you get my drift, nudge wink etc.)

I can access it fine.

That's a hilarious image too, though! wotf019


It won't load, keeps timing out. Might be my work filter.

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Re: Dave Wolverton's 10 reasons why he rejects a story

Postby gower21 » Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:52 pm

Is that Capt Kirk kissing Leia? Or it's just the wrong angle for Harrison Ford.

Also, Strycher, you soooo don't need to click that link. A few days later, I'm still having flashbacks and wondering why I click on links provided by Baker.


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