Discussion: Q2 Volume 37

Open topics on the Contest itself, to include results-watch threads and other items of note.
User avatar
empressed
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Discussion: Q2 Volume 37

Postby empressed » Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:10 pm

Believe me, I look forward to it!
Empress Editing
Victoria Dixon
Rx13
6x HM

User avatar
Eagerink
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:42 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Discussion: Q2 Volume 37

Postby Eagerink » Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:11 pm

empressed wrote:Thanks, Dragon & Disgruntled! :) (Got to love our names.) I know he won and others have, too. I'm just edgy and seeing that yesterday made me realize I don't know what I don't know. I do know I'm doing something right to get the HMs. I'd hoped the Q2 was good enough to at least receive a SHM if not more, but now... I'm thinking I should have been more brutal with my cuts. I cut my Q3 story by half and I could have done more, so I doubt it will go the distance. I never did huge cuts to the Q2 story because I felt like I needed what I had. Seeing what I did with the Q3, I'm doubting and then there's the POV issue. So yeah. . . Beats head against the wall. wotf027 The computer emoji seemed a little violent. LOL I can always rewrite it, but I'd kinda hoped to keep writing a new story for each quarter. Keeping up with Wolf's suggestions and all that. Well, we'll see. Right now, the well feels dry. The Q3 story took the mickie out of me. Sigh.



I hadn't heard anything about the judges disliking first person POV, could you tell me where that is? I imagine it is mostly because it is easier to make mistakes in it, such as switching viewpoints, but that is just a guess.

I tend to worry about my entries not being "perfect" too. I find that if I don't look at them or think about them I have a lot more confidence, and really whether I look at them or not it won't make a difference in their chances, so I may as well keep my hope than feel depressed about it. But the best way to forget about it is to put your energy into the present/future, rather than keeping it in the past. And if you need ideas, doing a little research into some subject or idea you find interesting never hurts :)
HM-HM-R-HM-R-??

Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great. - Mark Twain

Goal: 40 rejections during the year of v38: 1

wotf047

User avatar
empressed
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Discussion: Q2 Volume 37

Postby empressed » Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:15 pm

Excellent point, Eagerink. I love my research, so I should go for that. :D
Empress Editing
Victoria Dixon
Rx13
6x HM

FitzChivalryFarseer
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:19 pm
Location: Kingston, Ontario, Canada

Re: Discussion: Q2 Volume 37

Postby FitzChivalryFarseer » Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:33 pm

KD Julicher wrote:My Q1 winner is first person. About half my finalist pieces were. Well done first person is magnificent. As anyone who names himself FitzChivalry well knows!


Yes definitely!

I have a special place in my heart for first-person (and for Robin Hobb novels). No one should be scared off of first-person. Very immersive, great writing can come from that POV.

HermioneLee
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:27 pm
Location: Taoyuan County, Taiwan

Re: Discussion: Q2 Volume 37

Postby HermioneLee » Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:52 pm

Eagerink wrote:
I hadn't heard anything about the judges disliking first person POV, could you tell me where that is? I imagine it is mostly because it is easier to make mistakes in it, such as switching viewpoints, but that is just a guess.

Check out Moon's super secrets #25: don’t write a story in 1st person for wotf.

Moon wrote, "Scott Card, Tim Powers, AND David Farland railed against first person in any tense for an HOUR "
Fight for what you believe in; believe in what you fight for~~Hermione Lee
V37 Q1: R
V37 Q2: R
V37 Q3: ?
V37 Q4: ?

User avatar
Wulf Moon
Posts: 1870
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:54 pm
Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA
Contact:

Re: Discussion: Q2 Volume 37

Postby Wulf Moon » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:07 am

HermioneLee wrote:
Eagerink wrote:
I hadn't heard anything about the judges disliking first person POV, could you tell me where that is? I imagine it is mostly because it is easier to make mistakes in it, such as switching viewpoints, but that is just a guess.

Check out Moon's super secrets #25: don’t write a story in 1st person for wotf.

Moon wrote, "Scott Card, Tim Powers, AND David Farland railed against first person in any tense for an HOUR "


And yet, mine won. And it would have been diminished in third person. Do what you feel is right for the story you are telling. But it’s good to be aware about how the judges feel about first person.

Something to remember: A powerful story can push past all biases.
Wulf Moon http://driftweave.com
Author page: http://amazon.com/author/wulfmoon
Critter Awards: Wulf Moon BEST AUTHOR 2019; "Super-Duper Moongirl" BEST SF&F STORY 2019.
Nov Master Class on Winning Contests almost full! https://bit.ly/2ZWkuyu

Woodstock Writer
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:36 am

Re: Discussion: Q2 Volume 37

Postby Woodstock Writer » Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:39 am

All my entries have been in 1st person!

User avatar
disgruntledpeony
Posts: 1332
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Discussion: Q2 Volume 37

Postby disgruntledpeony » Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:43 am

FitzChivalryFarseer wrote:I am going to submit a story that is second person, future tense. I am going to use my college education for evil. Anyone who reads it will die from excessive groaning and eye-rolling. Pompous writing as a weapon of war. I am a monster. I am death. I am the destroyer of worlds.

One of my two current subs (not saying which quarter) is written in second person present tense. >_> It felt necessary for the story to have the proper impact. Really, in the end, our goal is to tell the most interesting version of our story we can, and perspective/viewpoint are key elements of that.
If you are in difficulties with a book, try the element of surprise: attack it at an hour when it isn't expecting it. ~ H.G. Wells

R, SF, SHM, SHM, SHM, F, R, HM, SHM, R, HM, R, F, SHM, SHM, SHM, ?, ?

https://ticknortales.com/

User avatar
Dustin Adams
Posts: 1870
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:47 am
Location: IN MY HOUSE!
Contact:

Re: Discussion: Q2 Volume 37

Postby Dustin Adams » Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:03 am

I love first and would write every short story that way, but lately I've been looking at the story and asking myself it it can be 3rd. If the answer is yes, then I switch it.

My novels are in 3rd. As much as I love writing in 1st, I dislike novels in 1st (reading or writing).
2x Finalist
1x Semi
4x Silver
9x HM
Eight EDF stories. DSF: Short Story. My Semi-F My Finalist #1

User avatar
chuckt
Posts: 421
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:12 am

Re: Discussion: Q2 Volume 37

Postby chuckt » Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:22 am

Wulf Moon wrote:
HermioneLee wrote:
Eagerink wrote:
I hadn't heard anything about the judges disliking first person POV, could you tell me where that is? I imagine it is mostly because it is easier to make mistakes in it, such as switching viewpoints, but that is just a guess.

Check out Moon's super secrets #25: don’t write a story in 1st person for wotf.

Moon wrote, "Scott Card, Tim Powers, AND David Farland railed against first person in any tense for an HOUR "


And yet, mine won. And it would have been diminished in third person. Do what you feel is right for the story you are telling. But it’s good to be aware about how the judges feel about first person.

Something to remember: A powerful story can push past all biases.


I figured Wulf would be along and point this out. Give his story "Moongirl" a read. https://future-sf.com/fiction/super-duper-moongirl-and-the-amazing-moon-dawdler/ He is, of course, correct. First person POV was absolutely essential for that tale to work. Yeah, some judges don't prefer it. But, ultimately, you can break lots of rules if it supports a good story.

Anyway. It's clearly not a rule. A lot of YA is written in 1POV. In fact, it seems to be the preference in that world.
36: R, R, R, SHM
37: R, HM, R, ?

KD Julicher
Posts: 409
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:15 pm

Re: Discussion: Q2 Volume 37

Postby KD Julicher » Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:43 am

HermioneLee wrote:
Eagerink wrote:
I hadn't heard anything about the judges disliking first person POV, could you tell me where that is? I imagine it is mostly because it is easier to make mistakes in it, such as switching viewpoints, but that is just a guess.

Check out Moon's super secrets #25: don’t write a story in 1st person for wotf.

Moon wrote, "Scott Card, Tim Powers, AND David Farland railed against first person in any tense for an HOUR "



A quick analysis of any recent volume of WOTF will show that a good half the stories are in 1st. So why the warning from the judges? I don't know, but it's possible that they get more bad first person stories than third person. That is, if 80% of entries to the contest are in first (I have no idea if this is true, I would doubt it's that extreme) but only half the winners are in first, that would suggest a lot of really bad first person stories along with some great ones.

It's also possible that this is advice they give all new writers. It's important when you're learning to understand the rules and why they exist. However, you won't be a real writer until you know when those rules must be broken. For instance, I consider "don't use first person present tense" to be a rule that I follow. But Moon's Super-Duper Moongirl story needed to be in first present! And I have written a story that had to be in first present as well. (It's here if you want to read it for free: http://www.intergalacticmedicineshow.com/cgi-bin/mag.cgi?do=issue&vol=i63&article=_001).
WOTF: HM x 16, SHMx2, SF x 1, F V31 Q3, V32 Q2, V32 Q4, V34 Q3, V36 Q1
Baen Fantasy Award Winner 2014
V32 Published Finalist
3rd place V37 Q1!

User avatar
Retropianoplayer
Posts: 221
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:23 am
Location: Peoria, Arizona

Re: Discussion: Q2 Volume 37

Postby Retropianoplayer » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:04 am

Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) wrote The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn in First Person. This allows the reader to experience the story through Huck's eyes and identify closely with the narrator. The story is told completely from Huck's perspective, and the MC refers to himself as "I" throughout the novel.

Huckleberry is thirteen. The author (Twain) is free to teach us lessons AS Huck learns them. The action is through his eyes, but the reader interprets the action through his/her eyes. This gives the reader a unique perspective.

It's a classic.

Nevertheless, ninety percent of books which you browse through at Barnes and Noble are third person.

Best,

Retro
"Judge your success by the degree that you're enjoying peace, health, and love" - Rule 306
"Never compromise your integrity." LIFE'S LITTLE INSTRUCTION BOOK by H.J. Browne, Jr.

Reuben
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon May 04, 2020 10:38 am
Location: New York

Re: Discussion: Q2 Volume 37

Postby Reuben » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:21 am

I agree with all that’s been said, that is the story should be told the best way it can. With me, about half of my stories are first person, maybe a little less. I avoid present tense though. (Seriously, how can they tell a story when they’re getting wacked by a gorilla? But that’s just me :)

Just to add a bit, looking through OSC’s book Character and Viewpoint, he does not, not once, disparage first person. (Although his views may have evolved over time.) What he does say is that for beginners, third person is best, and that many people, as KD said, use first person when they don’t know how. This is because first person seems to be the natural way to tell a story. What new writers don’t know however, is that thoughts can still be portrayed through third person, and that the perpetual “I” in first can be annoying.

But he does not say that nothing should be written in first person. In fact, I believe he won a nebula for “An Eye for an Eye”, a novella written in (basically) first person. (The one viewpoint that he sort of admits to not liking is third person omniscient, as it limits reader sympathy; yet there are exceptions to this as well. Gone With The Wind comes to mind.)

There are stories in which the full value is not realized without the first person, for example The Murder of Roger Akroyd, or any story or novel by Gene Wolfe.

Then there are those where the essential voice would be lost, Moongirl, for example, or Flowers for Algernon. I would be very disturbed (read: enraged) if someone were to take upon themselves to rewrite Anne Frank’s Diary in third person; it would remove the whole voice and the whole point.

In all this I don’t think Orson Scott Card, or Tim Powers, or David Farland disagree, even if they claim to. What they are saying is that there are many who write first person because they think it’s superior and thus butcher it; and not only that, but even those who do not butcher it could have done better with third. Examples of this may be David Copperfield, or Jane Eyre. Maybe Percy Jackson, maybe.

But that’s just their opinion, I like Jane Eyre just the way it is :)

This is just my opinion, but reading OSC, I think what he really means is that there is something of an up down up curve. That is: third person is the easiest way to write. When you get better it is tempting to write in first person as it makes it easier to portray the MC’s thoughts, thus bringing him/her closer to the reader. What one should strive for, however, is writing in third person anyway, taking the hard route, and the result is all the better for it.

That's my two cents. Or three. Or four. wotf011
Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm. ~ Winston Churchill
V. 37: R, R, R, ?

KellaBella23
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:47 am

Re: Discussion: Q2 Volume 37

Postby KellaBella23 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:33 am

I rewrote my story for the third quarter- from first person to third. And I must say, it allowed me to write a better story. I have so many more options this way as an omnisent observer of what’s happening.

Though, if my story was badass enough, first person could still win.

I am dying for the results of this quarter.
Seems like it’s taking much longer than usual?
Is that correct?
Vol 36Q2- Honorable Mention
Vol 37Q2- ??
Vol 37Q3- ??

User avatar
Wulf Moon
Posts: 1870
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:54 pm
Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA
Contact:

Re: Discussion: Q2 Volume 37

Postby Wulf Moon » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:38 am

Reuben, I agree with all that you have said. Except the assumption of Scott Card's present standing on writing in first person. He was absolutely against it at the Writers of the Future workshop--so were the other instructors, who are your judges--and OSC said in no uncertain terms the only true way to tell a story is in third person, past tense. Always. Yes, I did have my hand up through most of that lecture. No, he did not call on me. :)

In the end, every judge has their preferences, secret and not-so-secret biases, and opinions. It's good to be aware of them. Doesn't mean they turn aside good stories just because they have their preferences. They have said as much, and the published stories prove it. :)

All the best,

Wulf Moon
Wulf Moon http://driftweave.com
Author page: http://amazon.com/author/wulfmoon
Critter Awards: Wulf Moon BEST AUTHOR 2019; "Super-Duper Moongirl" BEST SF&F STORY 2019.
Nov Master Class on Winning Contests almost full! https://bit.ly/2ZWkuyu

HermioneLee
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:27 pm
Location: Taoyuan County, Taiwan

Re: Discussion: Q2 Volume 37

Postby HermioneLee » Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:49 am

KellaBella23 wrote:I rewrote my story for the third quarter- from first person to third. And I must say, it allowed me to write a better story. I have so many more options this way as an omnisent observer of what’s happening.

Though, if my story was badass enough, first person could still win.

I am dying for the results of this quarter.
Seems like it’s taking much longer than usual?
Is that correct?

I think (but am not 100% positive) that it might come out on Thursday
Fight for what you believe in; believe in what you fight for~~Hermione Lee
V37 Q1: R
V37 Q2: R
V37 Q3: ?
V37 Q4: ?

User avatar
Dustin Adams
Posts: 1870
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:47 am
Location: IN MY HOUSE!
Contact:

Re: Discussion: Q2 Volume 37

Postby Dustin Adams » Wed Jul 08, 2020 3:59 am

Results are always on a Thursday. Even on a Wednesday. wotf021
2x Finalist
1x Semi
4x Silver
9x HM
Eight EDF stories. DSF: Short Story. My Semi-F My Finalist #1

HermioneLee
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:27 pm
Location: Taoyuan County, Taiwan

Re: Discussion: Q2 Volume 37

Postby HermioneLee » Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:01 am

Dustin Adams wrote:Results are always on a Thursday. Even on a Wednesday. wotf021

And Tuesdays? The results of Q1 were announced on Tuesday, April 21st
Fight for what you believe in; believe in what you fight for~~Hermione Lee
V37 Q1: R
V37 Q2: R
V37 Q3: ?
V37 Q4: ?

User avatar
RSchibler
Posts: 757
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:53 pm
Location: San Antonio, TX
Contact:

Re: Discussion: Q2 Volume 37

Postby RSchibler » Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:38 am

Every day is Thursday.
V34: R, HM, R
V35: HM, R, R, HM
V36: R, HM, HM, SHM
V37: HM, SF, SHM, P

ALWAYS available for critique. PM me.

Stories in:
A Dying Planet, 2020
Hold Your Fire, 2021
Upon A Once Time, 2021
2020 Writers of the Future Superstars Scholarship

HermioneLee
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:27 pm
Location: Taoyuan County, Taiwan

Re: Discussion: Q2 Volume 37

Postby HermioneLee » Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:55 am

RSchibler wrote:Every day is Thursday.

Oh, I get it! :)
You mean the results will come out anytime
Fight for what you believe in; believe in what you fight for~~Hermione Lee
V37 Q1: R
V37 Q2: R
V37 Q3: ?
V37 Q4: ?

User avatar
chuckt
Posts: 421
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:12 am

Re: Discussion: Q2 Volume 37

Postby chuckt » Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:35 am

Someone did an analysis. I forget when it happens most often but recall that there isn't a strong correlation with any day of the week.
36: R, R, R, SHM
37: R, HM, R, ?

User avatar
RSchibler
Posts: 757
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:53 pm
Location: San Antonio, TX
Contact:

Re: Discussion: Q2 Volume 37

Postby RSchibler » Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:57 am

wotf011 And yet, Thursday cometh.
V34: R, HM, R
V35: HM, R, R, HM
V36: R, HM, HM, SHM
V37: HM, SF, SHM, P

ALWAYS available for critique. PM me.

Stories in:
A Dying Planet, 2020
Hold Your Fire, 2021
Upon A Once Time, 2021
2020 Writers of the Future Superstars Scholarship

User avatar
Dragonchef
Posts: 290
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 7:53 am

Re: Discussion: Q2 Volume 37

Postby Dragonchef » Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:16 am

chuckt wrote:Someone did an analysis. I forget when it happens most often but recall that there isn't a strong correlation with any day of the week.

Lets just reiterate what RSchibler and HermioneLee said:
HermioneLee wrote:
RSchibler wrote:Every day is Thursday.

Oh, I get it! :)
You mean the results will come out anytime

Enjoy your Thursdays!!
R = 5
HM = (Q4v36)
SHM = (Q3v32, Q3v37)
SF = Zip
F = Zero
WINs = Zilcho
wotf013

User avatar
vjalrik
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:07 am
Contact:

Re: Discussion: Q2 Volume 37

Postby vjalrik » Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:04 pm

This got me curious, so if you are too, here are my notification dates for the last four years:

SUN:
MON: | | | |
TUE: | |
WED: | | |
THU: | | | | |
FRI: |
SAT: |

Maybe not a majority, but definitely a solid bet.

RSchibler wrote:And yet, Thursday cometh.
Van Alrik
V33 (-- HM SHM R), V34 (SF R R HM), V35 (HM R R R),
V36 (R HM F HM), V37 (SF HM HM, Q4-Pending)
Latest sold story (10 total):
"The Church of Raw," Thuggish Itch: Scientific, Oct. 2018

User avatar
Dustin Adams
Posts: 1870
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:47 am
Location: IN MY HOUSE!
Contact:

Re: Discussion: Q2 Volume 37

Postby Dustin Adams » Wed Jul 08, 2020 3:12 pm

Hip, Hip... Thursday!
2x Finalist
1x Semi
4x Silver
9x HM
Eight EDF stories. DSF: Short Story. My Semi-F My Finalist #1

User avatar
DoctorJest
Posts: 240
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:18 pm
Location: California

Re: Discussion: Q2 Volume 37

Postby DoctorJest » Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:10 pm

Mine is a fairly even spread, so far: just corrected this, and it's two Mondays and Fridays, plus one each of Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Saturday. No Sundays in my list either.
WotF: R:0 / HM:7 / sHM:3 / SF:0 / F:0
In for Q4.v37!
Currently taking a breath ahead of Q1.v38...

User avatar
Beth Powers
Posts: 174
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2014 3:12 pm
Location: Indiana
Contact:

Re: Discussion: Q2 Volume 37

Postby Beth Powers » Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:02 pm

I've been submitting since the days of paper subs, so I have lots of data to draw from wotf008

Here's my weekday stats:

Monday = 8
Tuesday = 8
Wednesday = 10
Thursday = 7
Friday = 4
Saturday = 2
Sunday = 0

Of my nine Q2 submissions, 5 have received responses in July (the rest were May and June). Most of them were early in the month and a few were at the end with the latest being July 25th (an HM).

Of course, this info also spans different judges, the addition of a first reader, different results, and different methods of response (results used to come more in waves, rather than all at once). V36Q3 was the first time I ever received results on the weekend, although others have said they did prior to that, and as I was reviewing my info, I noticed that I have never received contest results twice on the same date. It's fun to look at the numbers, but if I've learned one thing, it's that Thursdays are unpredictable! wotf007
Beth Powers

HM x 15
Entries x 52 (because submitting is important too!)

Collected Stories: Sorcery & Widgets

User avatar
RSchibler
Posts: 757
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:53 pm
Location: San Antonio, TX
Contact:

Re: Discussion: Q2 Volume 37

Postby RSchibler » Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:25 pm

The acronym for Every Day Is Thursday is EDIT.

Maybe it's a higher truth, telling us to stop twitching and get back to work ;)

Best of luck to all. Results should be soon, I think.
V34: R, HM, R
V35: HM, R, R, HM
V36: R, HM, HM, SHM
V37: HM, SF, SHM, P

ALWAYS available for critique. PM me.

Stories in:
A Dying Planet, 2020
Hold Your Fire, 2021
Upon A Once Time, 2021
2020 Writers of the Future Superstars Scholarship

Corbin Maxwell
Posts: 473
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:53 am

Re: Discussion: Q2 Volume 37

Postby Corbin Maxwell » Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:42 pm

Working on my Q4 as we wait in twitchery.
For there is death in the sound of it, and a glamorous fatality, like silver pennons downrushing at sunset, or a dying fall of horns along the road to Ronceveaux.

The only easy day was yesterday.




SF x 1
SHM x 3
HM x 10

User avatar
Henckel
Posts: 456
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:30 pm
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Contact:

Re: Discussion: Q2 Volume 37

Postby Henckel » Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:36 pm

RSchibler wrote:The acronym for Every Day Is Thursday is EDIT.

Maybe it's a higher truth, telling us to stop twitching and get back to work ;)

Best of luck to all. Results should be soon, I think.


Love it!
(2014) V31 Q1 – R
(2018) V35 Q3 – HM
(2019) V36 Q3 – HM
(2019) V36 Q4 – SHM
(2020) V37 Q1 – R
(2020) V37 Q2 – HM
(2020) V37 Q3 – SHM
(2020) V37 Q4 – pending
(2021) V38 Q1 - ???


Return to “The Contest - Quarterly Topics, and Other Items”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests