Grad School, MFA in Creative Writing, Clarion, etc.

[Grayson Morris]

Depending on your goals/desires/plans, it's also possible to keep your life simple enough that you don't have to earn all that much -- which dramatically widens your options for jobs with enjoyable coworkers and not too many demands on you. Depending on your goals/desires/plans, you could, for example, consider being a night security guard somewhere not all that heavy-duty: lots of quiet time you could use to plot or write. Alternatively, you could work full or part time at, say, a tattoo parlor or coffee place or bakery or anywhere you actually liked the work and/or the group of folks.

I'm not saying it's a piece of cake or there are no tradeoffs -- I'm just mentioning it because you're at a point where you haven't yet committed to, say, a mortgage or children or living in an expensive city, so it's worth tossing into the mix of things you're thinking about.

[Alex Kane]

Dug up this advice from Garrison Keillor, to someone else with the same question:

Skip the MFA in creative writing, Andy. It's a scam run by English departments to fatten their coffers and doesn't do you much good except as a social club (you can find better ones elsewhere). You're apt to find star faculty who never teach and a whole lot of semi-published writers doing the teaching and the prevailing culture is one of mutual flattery. You waste two years hearing people tell you how wonderful you are and then you graduate and find out that nobody wants to read your stuff. If you want to write, sit down for a few weeks with the most gripping book you've ever read and analyze it to a fine hair—how it's organized, the structure, the time sequence, the characterizations—and then set out and write something similar. Don't turn up your nose at genre fiction—which MFA programs tend to do. Learn how to write a workmanlike novel. And if it doesn't get accepted for publication, no problem—go on and write another one. You're young, you have plenty of time. I wish I had done this when I was your age instead of drifting along on my own whims. Writing is a craft and you need to learn the craft before you can think about yourself as an artist. MFA programs start out by spraying genius aroma on you and that does nobody any good at all. It's a classic pyramid scheme. Don't go there unless there's a teacher whose feet you long to sit at and even so, don't inhale too deeply. And learn to spell "pastime".

[izanobu]

Now that is damn good advice.

[MontyApollo]

Looking at Keillor’s advice to analyze a favorite book to a fine hair, does anybody have a particular book in mind? I like a lot of books, but I don’t know if any are the “total package."

[Martin L. Shoemaker]

Looking at Keillor’s advice to analyze a favorite book to a fine hair, does anybody have a particular book in mind? I like a lot of books, but I don’t know if any are the “total package."

In Barry B. Longyear's writing book, he kinda suggests that's the wrong question. I think. I haven't gotten far into it yet.

But here's what I think he's saying. As a writer, you are (in part) the child of your influences. You will write best if you write what matters most to you. And so analyzing your favorite books is far more important than analyzing some "recommended" or "approved" or "classic" book, because it will help you to understand yourself better as a writer. You want to write the best MontyApollo story, not the best Charles Dickens story; so you want to start with analyzing why MontyApollo wants to write and what he values in a story.

Just an opinion to consider...

[Strycher]

Looking at Keillor’s advice to analyze a favorite book to a fine hair, does anybody have a particular book in mind? I like a lot of books, but I don’t know if any are the “total package."

In Barry B. Longyear's writing book, he kinda suggests that's the wrong question. I think. I haven't gotten far into it yet.

But here's what I think he's saying. As a writer, you are (in part) the child of your influences. You will write best if you write what matters most to you. And so analyzing your favorite books is far more important than analyzing some "recommended" or "approved" or "classic" book, because it will help you to understand yourself better as a writer. You want to write the best MontyApollo story, not the best Charles Dickens story; so you want to start with analyzing why MontyApollo wants to write and what he values in a story.

Just an opinion to consider...

That's funny. One of the Daily Kicks this week was suggesting that you do your market research in the best-selling list of your genre.



It's ridiculously hard to please a broad audience. It's impossible to please everyone. I know we all want to make a million bucks, I would too, but I'd be happy just to write something that I like and then find out a few other people like it as well.

[izanobu]

Yeah. Pick the books that most resonated with YOU. That means you have to read. No book will be a total package necessarily. I'd definitely pick more than one. When I wanted to learn how to write a breakneck-paced plot, I analyzed and reverse outlined a bunch of thriller novels. Some because they were bestsellers, some because I loved them and couldn't put them down. But every choice was personal based on my own reading. Not sure anyone can recommend something like that without knowing you personally. So you have to pick for yourself. What are your favorite books? Go with those to begin with.

[katsincommand]

Market research is different than analyzing a book to study writing as a craft and novel as a form of that craft. Way different.

[Patrick S. McGinnity]

So maybe I am too late to be of any use, but I'll throw my two cents in here for posterity. I was in the same boat as you a few years back, except I wanted to teach (without really understanding half of what that meant). I applied to eleven programs, and got into two, which allowed me to pick the better fit. I had some good times, got to work in an independent bookstore (probably the most useful thing I did), and came home with the coveted degree. I now teach composition at the state college where I completed my bachelors degree. They hired me to fill in for a fiction writer who'd split unexpectedly, but as soon as they got a new tenure track person in, I got relegated to comp. I applied for the TT position, but without a book to my name, I was out of the running before anyone even started running at all.

In my time here, I have come to realize that I really wouldn't want to be on the tenure track, even for that coveted fiction position. Academia is simply not for me. If I'd looked into it more back then, I might have saved myself some time and money, but of course I'd also have missed a lot of really cool experiences.

My advice to students (or anyone) considering an MFA is, if you really want to teach as much or more than you want to write, go for it. Grad school was amazing--I've never written more furiously or grown as a writer more quickly in my life. If you really need that credential for a job you're sure you want, fine; but if you're considering it for any other reason, reconsider. For those who want to teach, a PhD is far more useful, and even if you wind up as contingent faculty like me, you'll get to teach a wider variety of classes and you'll get paid a tad more.

I talked myself off the PhD ladder not long ago, and I can't tell you how much better I feel having come down. Nothing wrong with the degree, I just wasn't really in it for the right reason. I can find validation and a sense of accomplishment in other ways. Writing is one. Kids are another. Good luck.

[Martin L. Shoemaker]

Patrick, the experience wasn't completely wasted. It allowed you to write that post, which I found concise and effective. Seldom will someone so plainly say. "I tried something, gave it my best. It didn't work out. I've moved on, and I'm OK with it."

[Patrick S. McGinnity]

Thanks Martin, I was worried that it sounded like I was whinging a bit.

[Strycher]

(Also didn't think you were whining and found the anecdote to have value.)

[Strycher]

A friend of mine who would like to be a teacher but who would also like to see himself published is looking at MFA programs. He's interested in the University of Iowa's program. Has anyone heard anything good or bad about this program?

ETA: I mean I've heard of it, but I was wondering what people thought in regards to the topic of MFA programs that might help/educate someone on being a published author.

[izanobu]

If you want to be published, write a lot of stories and submit them constantly.

If you want to teach university level writing and especially creative writing, get an MFA.

The two have very little to do with each other in the end. If you want to be published in lower level lit magazines (which generally don't pay or pay little), an MFA in your cover letter might help. But it won't help as much for any level of magazine as just having a REALLY good story. The way to do that is to write a lot, work on your craft, and submit often.

[Patrick S. McGinnity]

(From Izanobu's posting)

I'd amend that a touch:

If you want to be published, write a lot of stories and submit them constantly.

If you want to teach university level writing and especially creative writing, write a lot of stories and submit them constantly, get an MFA, get numerous "respectable" short fiction "sales" many such markets pay in copies and credibility only, and get a book deal or two with an academic or otherwise "respectable" publisher. Even then getting the job teaching creative writing is a bit of a crapshoot.

[izanobu]

Yeah. What Patrick said.

[Strycher]

I'm not trying to get an MFA. I don't have money for that kind of thing and I like my day job.

My friend does not like his day job any more thought, and he doesn't have a family, so he can just up and decide to change careers. He wants to do both. He wants to teach and write publishable works. I was wondering if anyone knew of programs that were a good fit for a desire to do both. If not, that's cool.

[s_c_baker]

Strycher, PW has a list of the MFA rankings, updated yearly: http://www.pw.org/content/2012_mfa_rankings_the_top_fifty?cmnt_all=1 Tell your friend to be sure to read the program's pages thoroughly, though, and figure out whether they're geared towards teaching or writing. A friend of mine is getting his MFA somewhere (can't remember the name of the place) and likes it fine, although he wishes now he'd done more research before applying to that particular program.

His prose has improved a good deal since he started it, and I think he has a firmer grasp on characterization, too. He tends to write in the vein of Haruki Murakami and other unclassifiables.

So far as whether an MFA is good for money or not, it depends on you more than the program. Don't go in expecting them to magically make you publishable, or magically make you a better writer. If you put the effort in, you'll be rewarded.

Could you put the effort in and get a similar reward without the MFA? Sure, possibly.

The idea that MFA programs are "a scam run by English departments" is frankly a bit bizzare. A BAD MFA program? Sure, maybe. But ALL MFA programs? Bizarre.

It depends--as well as the program--on the person. Some need that deadline (I know I need them, even though I'm not getting an MFA) and the classroom environment to help prod them along the path to learning. Others are able to do it themselves, with no outside stimuli.

Look at an MFA like this: you get 2 years to devote exclusively to learning the ins and outs of writing and (depending on the program) teaching others to write. Teaching is not at all divorced from writing. Saying so is like saying that critiquing someone's writing won't teach you anything. If you know how to teach it, you know how it works, and can theoretically apply that to your own writing. You also get to spend that time engaging with others who are working towards the same goal on a daily basis--both in terms of your teachers and your fellow classmates.

Now, if anyone has earned an MFA and still thinks it's a scam, I'll gladly amend my opinion. (Garrison Keiller, as far as I could tell, only has a BA in English, and is largely a radio show producer and writer of nonfiction besides, except for his recent forays into scriptwriting and "a novel".)

If you only listen to one person's advice in this forum (or elsewhere) make it Patrick's.

[Strycher]

Thanks for the link!

It would take me 4 years to earn a MFA, since I went to technical school and would have to earn a baccalaureate first. Which--frankly--I already sold a story to a pro-paying market without either.

I kind of tried to steer my friend in the direction of finding a program where the professors are actively publishing in the genre and at the length he wants to work in himself. He seems committed, but I'm really not sure where he is on his writing path, so we'll see how it goes. I think your link is a good place to start, so thanks again. (And hey! Ann Arbor's second on the list [alphabetically I know], that's where's my step-mother went!)

[Alex Kane]

I didn't get into Clarion. Still waiting on a response from C. West. If any of you are adept at some sort of black magic, or voodoo, feel free to send gobs of otherworldly luck my way.

[Grayson Morris]

WHAT????

I am truly stunned. I've read several of Alex's stories, and I can't believe he isn't Clarion material. Granted, I haven't done Clarion, but I know Alex can write well, and I'm just....really, really flabbergasted that Clarion thinks he isn't ready for them.

[s_c_baker]

WHAT????

I am truly stunned. I've read several of Alex's stories, and I can't believe he isn't Clarion material. Granted, I haven't done Clarion, but I know Alex can write well, and I'm just....really, really flabbergasted that Clarion thinks he isn't ready for them.

It might even be more of a "spoiled for choice" thing.

My MFA friend tried to switch programs, and his writing's pretty great too, but all the new programs turned him down. A rejection isn't necessarily a judgment on your own abilities as a writer alone. What other people submitted, the tastes of the judges, &c., also play a part.

[Patrick S. McGinnity]

(And hey! Ann Arbor's second on the list [alphabetically I know], that's where's my step-mother went!)

When I was applying, I got the meanest rejection from U of M, which really hurt, as I've always been a fan of their basketball team and of Ann Arbor itself. The letter went something like:

"Dear Mr. McGinnity,

Thanks for applying to the University of Michigan's MFA program in Creative Writing. This year, we had an astounding number of exceptional applicants; unfortunately you were not one of them. Better luck at less prestigious schools."

Okay, the last part I made up, but the actual rejection sentence is true to the spirit of the original.

[Grayson Morris]

Indeed, it just occurred to me (ten seconds after I wrote that immediate response) that maybe they're tight for space, and they decided the youngest applicant could afford to wait a year. I honestly can't understand what else it could be.

[Strycher]

This year, we had an astounding number of exceptional applicants; unfortunately you were not one of them.

Ruuuuuuude! Maybe it was an oversight? It probably just came out wrong. My step-mom didn't do the creative writing program though, she's a Minister. [Insert joke about Ministers needing more creative writing abilities.]

I know I wouldn't get into Clarion. So, I just keep beeboping along: Write, submit, write, submit.

[s_c_baker]

(And hey! Ann Arbor's second on the list [alphabetically I know], that's where's my step-mother went!)

When I was applying, I got the meanest rejection from U of M, which really hurt, as I've always been a fan of their basketball team and of Ann Arbor itself. The letter went something like:

"Dear Mr. McGinnity,

Thanks for applying to the University of Michigan's MFA program in Creative Writing. This year, we had an astounding number of exceptional applicants; unfortunately you were not one of them. Better luck at less prestigious schools."

Okay, the last part I made up, but the actual rejection sentence is true to the spirit of the original.

I wonder if that last (real) sentence wasn't supposed to mean more like "unfortunately, we were unable to select you out of this number" or something. The pre-semicolon seems intended to soften the blow, not sharpen it!

[izanobu]

Well, they can only take 18 people and usually get a couple hundred applications. And writing ability is only part of the consideration, they apparently look at the potentials as a whole and see how a group might work well together in terms of where they are at, what they write, experience, etc.

Which of course makes the fact that I got in last year even more baffling.

[gower21]

I didn't get into Clarion. Still waiting on a response from C. West. If any of you are adept at some sort of black magic, or voodoo, feel free to send gobs of otherworldly luck my way.

Boo Clarion, boo!!! I vote it wasn't a youth thing, but a talent thing. They saw all the other applicants and decided Alex needed the *least* help and figured they needed to rid the the world of the other hacks a year earlier.

Dear Alex,

We loved your story. Wish the others could write to your ability. We've decided this year to do something different and we are offering a remedial Clarion and you just don't qualify. We'll be keeping in touch and hope you can attend one of our Advanced Placement classes when we are able to offer them again.

(my apologies to any out there who got in this year...I'm sure you were the exception and you're super duper talented and all).


I don't know any black magic, but I grew up strict Catholic (in recovery right now). Although it was never explicitly stated I always got the feeling God likes Catholics more. I'll go send him a nudge or poke him on Facebook at let him know what's up.

[Alex Kane]

Thanks, guys, but yeah . . . I'm trying to stick with Annie's attitude on this. I'll never know, so I might as well assume that it was for pragmatic reasons. They do get a lot of applications.

[Alex Kane]

Rejection from Clarion West as well, sigh. Guess maybe I'll try and get to Chicon 7 in August, and do some kind of writerly panels there or something, if possible.